This set of hearings mostly concerned the enforcement of the GCA, not the NFA. Mostly it seems to be concerned with bogus setups of "strawman" sales, and charges of dealing w/o an FFL. I only did the testimony of David Jewell, as he is now a gun dealer (Scottie's Guns) in Denver, CO, and was a plaintiff in the suit to overturn the Denver AW ban, which was lost. I was curious about what he had to say. [fiche cite CIS 1981 S521-20] GUN CONTROL AND CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON THE CONSTITUTION OF THE COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY UNITED STATES SENATE NINETY-SIXTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION ON CONSTITUTIONAL OVERSIGHT OF A REGULATORY AGENCY-THE BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO AND Firearms, DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY-ON THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE GUN CONTROL ACT OF 1968 ------ SEPTEMBER 15, 1980 ------ Serial No. 96-83 Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE WASHINGTON: 1981 newpage [SNIP] CONTENTS OPENING STATEMENTS page Bayh, Hon. Birch, a U.S. Senator from the State of Indiana, chairman, Subcommittee on the Constitution----------------- 1 Dole, Hon. Robert A., a U.S. Senator from the State of Kansas - 143 Hatch, Hon. Orrin G., a U.S. Senator from the State of Utah --- 142 Simpson, Hon. Alan K., a U.S. Senator from the State of Wyoming ---------------------------------------------------------- 371 Thurmond, Hon. Strom, a U.S. Senator from the State of South Carolina ------------------------------------------------- 142 CHRONOLOGICAL LIST OF WITNESSES Davis, Hon. Richard J., Assistant Secretary for Enforcement and Operations, Department of the Treasury--------------------- 26 Best, Robert, South Bend, Ind., accompanied by J. Paul Barnett ---------------------------------------------------------- 276 Jewell, David, Boulder, Colo----------------------------------- 276 WampIer, Robert, Mechanicsville, Va --------------------------- 276 Beard, Michael, executive director, National Coalition to Ban Handguns, accompanied by Mark Tuller---------------------- 296 Knox, Neal, executive director, Institute for Legislative Action, National Rifle Association, accompanied by David Hardy, consultant, Institute for Legislative Action, National Rifle Association ---------------------------------------------- 331 ALPHABETICAL LISTING AND MATERIALS SUBMITTED Barnett, J. Paul: Prepared statement -------------------------- 291 Bayh, Hon. Birch: Responses to inquiries from BATF and the Treasury Department --------------------------------------- 3 Beard, Michael K.: Testimony------------------------------------------------- 296 Prepared statement---------------------------------------- 303 Exhibits: 1. "Gunrunners' Sneak Attack," editorial from the Washington Post, September 3, 1980------------------- 309 2. "Gun Decontrol in Congress," Newsday, August 11, 1980 ----------------------------------------------------- 300 3. "Outrageous Gun Reform," Youngstown, Ohio, Vindicator, August 12, 1980 ------------------------------------- 310 4. "New Gun Bill Far Off Target," Chicago, Ill., Sun -Times, August 27, 1980------------------------------ 310 5. "Gun Decontrol," Montgomery, Ala., Alabama Journal, June 27,1980----------------------------------------- 311 6. "Businessman Thriving in a Sideline: Illegal Handguns," New York Times, June 16, 1980 ------------ 311 7. Petition to the BATF requesting remedial action under title I of the Gun Control Act to restrict issuance of Federal firearms dealers' licenses to bona fide businessmen who are conducting a responsible, law-abiding business -------------------------------------------- 314 8. Compliance of Federal firearms licensees with Federal, State, and local laws and standard business practices 320 Best, Robert: Testimony --------------------------------------- 276 (iii) newpage IV page Davis Hon. Richard J.: Testimony------------------------------------------------- 26 Prepared statement--------------------------------------- 150 1979 firearms trace project------------------------------- 31 Responses to questions submitted by Senator Hatch--------- 31 Firearms taken into Bureau custody----------------------- 147 Sales of firearms by licensees at organized gun shows --- 161 Destructive devices-------------------------------------- 162 Firearms, administrative actions and criminal actions---- 164 Definition of the phrase "Engaged in the Business"------- 169 Public affairs guidelines-------------------------------- 170 Department of the Treasury, BATF, firearms program, April 1980----------------------------------------------------- 181 Additional questions and responses subsequently submitted by BATF-------------------------------------------------- 210 Standards and procedures for filing a firearms license with the BATF------------------------------------------------- 214 Technical services procedures-Firearms and explosives--------- 231 Dickerson, G. R.: Statement before the Subcommittee on Treasury, Postal Service, General Government of the Senate Appropriations Committee 155 Statement before the House Subcommittee on Crime, July 2, 1980----------------------------------------------------- 151 Letter subsequently sent to Hon. Orrin G. Hatch, Jan. 14, 1981----------------------------------------------------- 486 Hardy, David: Testimony------------------------------------------------ 331 Prepared statement with attachments---------------------- 371 Statement submitted for the National Coalition to Ban Handguns, [sic, probably should be NRA] before the Subcommittee on Crime, House Judiciary Committee--------- 344 "Federal Agents Accused of Beating Pair," the Daily Times, April 15, 1978 ------------------------------------------ 417 "Police Admit Error in Arrest," Daily Times, April 19, 1978 --------------------------------------------------------- 418 "Agent Claims In Gun-Running Case He Shot Undercover Counterpart," Sarasota Herald-Tribune, December 18, 1979 419 "Alcohol-Firearms Agent Accused of Drunkenness, Waving Pistol," the Miami Herald, August 9, 1980 --------------- 420 "Special Agent is Charged in Scuffle," the Miami Herald, August 9, 1980------------------------------------------- 420 "T-Man Held as Queens Elevator Sex Fiend," New York Post, February 5, 1980 ---------------------------------------- 421 "Do Some Checking Before Barging In," Journal-American, Octo- ber 31, 1978 -------------------------------------------- 421 "Fighting Uncle Sam," Prescott Courier, June 23, 1980---- 422 Anti-ATF Protest Staged by Communist Workers," the Washington, Star, August 5, 1980 ----------------------------------- 423 "Five Officers in Wild Gunfight in Saloon," the News-San Antonio, April 27, 1979 --------------------------------- 424 "ATF Anti Cop," Police Product News, April 1979 -------- 424 Letter to Senator Bayh subsequently sent in regard to additional testimony; with attachments, affidavits, and witness interview reports ------------------------------- 425 Jewell, David: Testimony ------------------------------------- 276 Knox, Neal: Testimony------------------------------------------------ 331 Letter to U.S. Attorney General Benjamin R. Civiletti from Judge Edward D. Rosenberg, December 28, 1979 ------------ 333 Letter to Judge Edward D. Rosenberg from Judge Saul A. Epton, January 8, 1980 ----------------------------------------- 334 "ATT Agent Claims Federal License Required to Sell or Trade Any Gun," from Gun Week, November 18, 1966 -------------- 334 BATF Abuses Unchanged: Promises Broken ------------------ 335 Government Civil Liberties Abuses of Gun Owners --------- 336 Resolution adopted by the National Rifle Association, relating to rights of firearms possession, ownership, etc 338 Wampler, Robert: Testimony------------------------------------------------- 276 Letter subsequently sent to Mary K. Jolly, staff director and counsel Subcommittee on the Constitution, with attachments, in regard to seizure of Mr. Wampler's gun collection ----- 285 "Collector Asks U.S. to Return All 70 Seized Guns," the Washington Post, July 3, 1980----------------------------- 288 newpage V APPENDIX PART I - ADDITIONAL STATEMENTS N. T. "Pete" Shields, chairman, Handgun Control Inc.----------- 439 National Council for Responsible Firearms Policy, Inc.--------- 447 Second Amendment Foundation: Letter to Birch Bayh from Bill Garrison, research director, with attachments----------------------------------------- 449 "The BATF's War on Civil Liberties: The Assault on Gun Owners"--------------------------------------------------- 460 "Everything the BATF never wanted Congress to know about 'Operation CUE'"------------------------------------------ 494 Letter to Hon. Orrin G. Hatch, from G. R. Dickerson, Jan. 14, 1981 --------------------------------------------------------------- 486 PART II.-CORRESPONDENCE FROM CONCERNED CITIZENS REGARDING VIOLATIONS OF THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL AND CIVIL RIGHTS Lee B. Price, Great Falls, S.C., August 8, 1980--------------- 497 Joseph D. Moyelewski, Burlington, N.J., August 10, 1980, with attachments---------------------------------------------- 509 George Curevich, Lavergne, Tenn., August 11, 1980, with attachments---------------------------------------------- 515 William L. Smith, Greenwood, S.C., August 12, 1980, with attachments---------------------------------------------- 522 Bernie Kottke, Mankato, Minn., August 12, 1980---------------- 542 Eugene I. Brackins, Galax, Va., August 13, 1980--------------- 545 Susan Scannapieco, Fern Par, Fla., August 14, 1980------------ 546 Donald R. Shay, Indiana, August 14, 1980---------------------- 549 J. J. Jenkins, Santa Barbara, Calif., August 16, 1980--------- 551 Bert Dodd, Chesapeake, Va., August 18, 1980, with attachments 553 Royce Kerbow, Jr., Denver, Colo., August 18, 1980------------- 568 Daniel A. Mutchler, Perrysburg, Ohio, August 18, 1980 -------- 568 Jerry W. Cassill, Stoutsville, Ohio--------------------------- 571 Douglas A. Schneider, New Orleans, La., August 19, 1980------- 585 Jim Gowda, Arvada, Colo -------------------------------------- 588 Wilson Sporting Goods, Robinson, Ill-------------------------- 590 Martha Woodhall, the Greensboro Record, Greensboro, N.C., August 26, 1980 ------------------------------------------------ 595 Fred K. Brooks, Central Florida Arms & Pawn, Orlando, Fla., September 4, 1980 --------------------------------------- 596 E. D. France, Berlin, Md., September 5, 1980 ----------------- 597 Lowell T. Hypes, Radford, Va., September 9, 1980-------------- 598 Donald J. Vingino, Tucson, Ariz., September 10, 1980 --------- 603 Wiley W. Morris, II, S. Tucson, Ariz., September 10, 1980 ---- 606 Byron C. Melvin, Pensecola, Fl., September 11, 1980 ---------- 616 Linda Lee Ball, Ceres, Calif --------------------------------- 617 Larry Z. Short, Lexington, Ky., September 16, 1980 ----------- 619 Warren Daniels, Ozone Guns & Grain, Slidell, La., September 17, 1980----------------------------------------------------- 619 Owen K. Metz, Ceres, Calif ----------------------------------- 622 Clifton L. Holmes, Kilgore, Tex., September 22, 1980, with attachments---------------------------------------------- 622 Alan Schultz, Pittsburgh, Pa., October 4 and 11, 1980--------- 717 John W. Kerlin, Kokomo, Ind., October 11, 1980 --------------- 719 John H. Bailey, D.D.S., Ceres, Calif., October 22, 1980 ------ 720 PART III.-BIBLIOGRAPHY "Gun Control and the Second Amendment," By Earleen H. Cook and Joseph Lee Cook ----------------------------------------- 720 newpage [SNIP] 289 and others. But he noted that investigations of previous complaints by critics of his agency have failed to turn up evidence of abuses by federal agents. "Every case they bring up we look into," Dickerson said in a telephone interview. "I know of no case in which an ATF agent has ever been charged with a violation of civil liberties." Wampler, a stocky soft spoken man in a three-piece gray suit, who works as a personnel manager for a pharmaceutical in Richmond, voiced numerous complaints about the federal firearms bureau at yesterday's news conference. Despite threats that he would be indicted, Wampler said, he has never been charged with any firearms crime. He complained that he has spent $2,000 to $3,000 in legal fees and other expenses because of the seizure of his guns. Sixty-six pistols, and rifles were returned to him by the federal agency June 1, 1979-about 2 1/2 years after they were seized. Four others-described by Wampler as an unusual 19th Century "knife" pistol, shaped like a pocket knife, a World War II German-made Mauser pistol, and two shotguns-are still in federal custody. "I would like to know why I can't have the four guns back," Wampler asserted. Federal officials said yesterday thy could comment publicly only on some of Wampler's statements. They said they were barred by federal privacy restrictions from responding to other complaints. Officials said Wampler's guns were initially seized after an undercover investigation turned up evidence that, he was allegedly dealing in firearms without a license. Wampler disputed that allegation yesterday, saying that he had been told by a federal agent in 1965 that he did not need a license and had, therefore, allowed his license to lapse. Government officials said 66 guns were held until last year because an investigation was still under way. They said they were precluded by privacy restraints from stating why the other four weapons are still being held. But Peter B. Mastin, assistant special agent in charge of the agency's Washington district office, said "ATF followed all proper administrative proceedings in the retention of those firearms." Senator BAYH. Mr. Jewell ? Mr. JEWELL. My name is David Jewell. I live in Boulder, Colo. I am a British subject. I am 40 years of age, a printer by trade, and a single parent. I came to this country 10 years ago. I started to hunt and fish and go to gun shows and then began to collect guns, which I found rather refreshing, having come from a country where it is almost impossible to own a firearm. Initially indiscriminate in my collection, I accrued a lot of different types of guns, at which point being British I decided to collect only British guns. Being of limited means, that excluded the finer rifles and shotguns which can cost anywhere from $1,000 to $10,000. So I concentrated on my British military weapons of mostly the World War periods, of which I again have a collection of a couple dozen, excluding the ones that the BATF still have. It was at this point I started disposing of the unwanted guns by preferably trading them for British guns or selling them. I actually gave one away to a gentleman who was with the British Marines and carried that same type of weapon during the war. I also refused to sell a handgun to-I won't call him a gentleman-a man who came to me and I asked him what he wanted the gun for, and he took off his shirt and showed me a bullet scar in his arm and told me he was going to kill this MF policeman I think in Illinois. I took the person's license plate number and informed the local police so they could at least warn the policeman. I don't know what happened about that. newpage 290 At this point I came to the attention of the BATF who arrested me and confiscated my collection of personal firearms and also 11 guns belonging to other people which were in my care. I was charged with dealing without a license and one interstate sale, which was a strawman's sale-charges which have since been dropped. The day I was arrested, the BATF was at the annual gun collectors-association gun show in Denver, which is a very prestigious affair, where my collection was displayed. They were taking photos and filming. These photos and/or film should quite clearly show my guns were labeled "Collection only, not for sale." When I was arrested, I was arrested on my way home in the car. There was a carload of BATF in front of me and a carload behind. I had a young man with me, a son of a friend of mine. He was helping me to unload and pack. I was going to drop him off at his home. He was terrified. Two BATF men got out of the car in front and two BATF men got out of the car behind me. They came with drawn guns and badges. I was, incidentally wearing my Scottish regalia, which is a kilt, which I go to gun shows in. I was first spread-eagled against the side of the car and then handcuffed and read my rights. I was then taken to the Denver Federal Center where in the basement they started unloading my car, and they were just dropping the guns on a concrete floor. I would like to point out that one of the guns is conservatively in this book valued at about $7,000. This book is 3 years old. It is a Winchester model 21 Grand American, which is probably the finest example, of American gun craftsmanship ever. In 1977 this gun was valued at $5,500. I have repeatedly petitioned to have my guns returned with no success. BATF claims that allowing the petition would effect the return of the firearms to an individual whose illegal activities caused the forfeiture. Well. I have never been convicted of anything worse than a speeding ticket in my life. They also have a Catch-22. When my guns were taken, I filed a $250 cost bond, which I was advised to do by the BATF. I mailed the check to the Clerk of the U.S. district court. The check was returned. We were told as there had been a pretrial diversion where I agreed I would not possess a firearm for 1 year that it would be inconsistent with me receiving the guns back. Then I was informed I could refile at the end of that year, which we did. We were then told that as I had not chosen to file a claim and cost bond, a year earlier, I was now too late. I am very concerned is to the whereabouts and condition of these guns. Mr. Dickerson was specifically asked by Congressman Volkmer at the July 3 hearing to inform him about the whereabouts of these guns. I would like to know whether this has been done. I also have a BATF appraisal of the $19,000 collection which is quite, ridiculous at $2,425. One gun alone, the Winchester Grand American, is worth, as I said, at least $7,000. BATF value $150. The gold inlays are worth more than that. I very much appreciate the opportunity to tell my story. Thank you very much. Senator BAYH. Mr. Barnett, do you care to make any comment at this time? newpage 291 Mr. BARNETT. I don't have any comment at this time, sir. [The prepared statement subsequently submitted by Mr. Barnett follows:] PREPARED STATEMENT OF J. PAUL BARNETT, NORTHERN VICE PRESIDENT, INDIANA SPORTSMEN'S COUNCIL AND VICE PRESIDENT, NORTHERN INDIANA GUN COLLECTOR'S ASSOCIATION Mr. Chairman, I am Paul Barnett. As northern vice president of the Indiana Sportsmen's Council, and vice president of the Northern Indiana Gun Collector's Association, I am here on behalf of those organizations. Mainly, I am here as a friend of Mr. Best, whose testimony you have heard. For the record, I am a former Indiana state trooper, later a high school English teacher. For the last 13 years I have been occupied full time in the field of muzzle loading. Your hearing record of June 12, 1973 contains various of my own experiences and those of other people attempting to pursue their legitimate and worthy activities under another law, Title XI of the Organized Crime Control Act of 1970, which in 1974 was amended unanimously by Congress to a form better directed to its expressed purposes. With regard to Mr. Best's testimony, I would like to say I was with him when the firearms were approved for sale. When he was arrested for selling them, I was the first person informed of his distress. When the bond set in his case was identical to the bond set for a young man accused of whipping an old lady with a tire iron during a mugging, I shared Mr. Best's frustration at the anomaly. During the next seven months I was on call from Mr. Best's attorney and himself in varying capacities, in an attempt to minimize his legal expenses. I saw other of his friends assist him in various ways as they did what they could to ease his situation through moral support, contributions to his defense, and so on. And when for unexplained reasons the charges against Mr. Best were dropped four days before the trial, I was the first person to be contacted by his astonished attorney. During that time, all of us who were involved shared the displeasure of watching a federal agency pursue action against a man of family, of 20 or so years tenure in a socially contributing job. of neighborhood respect, who one night had rushed to the aid of a neighbor being beaten by robbers in his driveway, and whose alleged technical infractions of the Gun Control Act were based on interpretations that were in conflict with earlier interpretations by the selfsame government agency; indeed, by the same agent. To all of us, there seemed something terribly wrong with that. Now, eight years later, I would like to express deep gratitude from us all for your holding this hearing so that Mr. Best and the other gentlemen here can make their experiences known to Congress. If, as a result of this hearing it is found that ways should be implemented to ensure that experiences such as these gentlemen have shared can be avoided in the future, with the burdens of criminal behavior falling more appropriately on persons who have committed it, I am confident that we will all be grateful in further measure for that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator BAYH. Mr. Best, did you finally get all of your weapons back? Mr. BEST. There was only one confiscated, and that was at the time of my arrest. Cincinnati ordered that gun returned. They said it was taken illegally. When Agent Bauer returned that gun, he said, "I wish those blankety-blanks in Cincinnati would have stayed out of this because I would have liked to get you 10 years in prison." He made that statement to my wife. The property tags on all four guns, the ones I was supposed to have sold to the Michigan agent, were all signed by the Indiana agent. So he wrote on there that he had obtained all four guns. Senator BAYH. They took you right up to the 11th hour and then withdrew charges? newpage 292 Mr. BEST. Four days prior to the trial, on a Sunday morning, because I was working, my attorney got ahold of me, and we were due to go to trial on Thursday and Friday of the following week. That Sunday morning the attorney told me, they had dropped all charges. We don't know why. Senator BAYH. You spent about $5,000 in attorney's fees? Mr. BEST. Yes. And a few of my choice pieces out of my collection, too, which hurt quite a bit. Senator BAYH. I appreciate your sharing that experience with us. Mr. Wampler did you get all of your weapons back or four of them are still gone? Mr. WAMPLER. Four I still do not have back. Senator BAYH. When did this take place? Mr. WAMPLER. I was raided November 18, 1976. I had most of the collection, all but the four, finally returned on I believe, May 29, 1979-2 1/2 years later. Senator BAYH. Is there any excuse or reason why they are keeping the four? Mr. WAMPLER. Not to my understanding. Senator BAYH. Were they any more dangerous or any more valu- able? Why would they choose just four? Mr. WAMPLER. Well, initially I was told to give up the whole collection. Initially my attorney went to the U.S. attorney, the prosecutor, and the prosecutor told him, "I really don't think much of this case, but if your client will give up his gun collection, we won't prosecute him, won't bring any charges." Of course, I didn't go along with that. Over a period of 2 1/2 years they kept. coming back saying give up 50, give up 35. They had odd figures. I don't know why the figures were odd or how they were derived, but they confiscated 70 originally, 11 of which belonged to my brother. First they said if I didn't give the whole collection back, I would be indicted. Of course, I waited out that month and I wasn't indicted. I found out you really don't know whether you are indicted unless you read the paper or listen for phone calls. So you sweat a whole month. Several months went by and I wasn't indicted. Then he said give up 56. I never knew why the numbers. Eventually, after repeated numbers, going progressively lower, I was told the last offer was five guns, and five that I wanted. Senator BAYH. What do they do with the guns? Mr. WAMPLER. That is a good question. [Laughter.] The three that I finally selected and we got down to-I refused to give up five-are now in the ATF library I am told. In fact, the only thing that I ever agreed to in any manner to give up, and that was on a, temporary basis, until we could determine whether or not it was legal or illegal, was an oddity, known as a knife pistol. I can't even say they were popular because, there were not that many of them made. But they were mostly in evidence in the 1870's. 1880's. I think the last company that actually made them ceased somewhere around 1910 or 1912. I had had the thing and never displayed it or anything else. It was just an oddity. It would probably explode if it was fired. But it still was an oddity. Nevertheless, they decided that this fell in the gray area of the law. There wasn't anything in the law that said a knife - pistol was illegal, but it said any other fire arms. 293 Senator BAYH. I might ask counsel if she would ask a few of these questions. I am particularly anxious to know what the disposition of this case is as far as you are concerned, Mr. Wampler. Do you feel that testifying here may have put you in jeopardy because, of your cooperation with the committee? Mr. Barnett, you could, I don't know whether you have any thoughts you would like to share with us or not. Mr. BARNETT. No, not at this time Mr. Chairman. I am mainly accompanying Mr. Best. Senator BAYH. I would still like to have more information about where your weapons are, Mr. Jewell, or what steps are being taken. I would like to see a gun conservatively valued at $7,000. That is quite a weapon. To know why that would be held, what use could be made of it if you could pursue that. Ms. JOLLY. I think one of the things it would be good to elaborate on for the record is the kinds of activities you carry on with your firearms. Whether or not you are sportsmen, in terms of hunting, target shooting, or if you mainly use your weapons for collecting purposes or gun shows. Mr. Best, do you want to start? Mr. BEST. Mine are mostly collectors items. I think I have only five modern firearms out of my whole collection. About the only thing I do is a little trap shooting and a lot of tin can shooting. Ms. JOLLY. Mr. Wampler? Mr. WAMPLER. I think my guns would be under the terminology of presentation pieces for the most part. A number of them are inlaid with gold, silver, one even had platinum in it. It is hard to explain what engraving is if you don't understand it, but it is a form of art. Ms. JOLLY. Dating back to what years? Mr. WAMPLER. They date back to the 1700's, frankly. But the ones that, of course, caught the attention of the BATF were those that were newer guns. They took them all the way from the year 1866, which I believe was the earliest one with a date on it. They took them right on up to the present. As far as using them. I am very proud to display them when I have company over, obviously. I display them at shows to attract others of similar kind. I rarely have occasion to shoot guns. I do target shooting once every 2 or 3 years. Ms. JOLLY. Thank you. Mr. Jewell? Mr. JEWELL. Mine are strictly collectors items. They didn't take in personal firearms. like my shotguns. which I actually use. The guns they took from me, not one of them have I ever fired. Strictly collectors, items. Ms. JOLLY. I believe all three of you had firearms confiscated of one type or another, some of them have been returned by BATF, some have not. In some cases your charges were dropped after you entered into a plea-bargaining situation. Did you voluntarily sign over the firearms to an agent in the locale and, if so, what were the reasons you might have done this from your perspective? Mr. JEWELL. In my case, absolutely not. I wouldn't sign over anything to those guys. [Laughter.] newpage 294 Mr. WAMPLER. I think I covered that fairly extensively earlier. Well I had never agrees with my attorney, but specifically with his assistant who said, "I don't see why he has to give up anything." That is when I told my attorney I liked his assistant's advice. He said, "Well, they are going to make a big fuss about the knife-pistol." I said, "Well, I would discuss giving that up. I would give it up- only if I am assured it is not going to be destroyed, and I will give it up long enough to make a determination as to whether or not it is legal or not legal, if it will facilitate the return of my other, gun." He was the one that mentioned that I probably should consider- he said, "If worse comes to worse, there is no way they are going to hit you with criminal activity. There is nothing they can charge you with. If the very worst happens they will take you to court for the three guns they named in the warrant," which were two .410 shotguns and the Mauser. Two of these guns I did want to get rid of. I had two shotguns that were identical. One of them I did want to sell. The other one I wanted to keep. The Mauser I wanted to got rid of. He said they could be considered gun trades and, therefore, they could conceivably take those if worse came to worse. So he is the one that told the prosecutor, "I have warned Mr. Wampler you could charge him civilly with those." The prosecutor said, "OK, give up those three and the knife pistol," and closed the case. That was in November 1978. It was 6 months later before I got them back, the remainder of them. I signed them over under duress, in my opinion. As soon as I signed them over and as soon as I picked them up, I did give them statement saying, "You hold onto all four of them while I can determine why I have to give them up." That is on record. Mr. BEST. In my particular case, the only one that they confiscated was that .410 single-shot, and it was returned. But you have to remember that when they arrested me on that Sunday evening, they had no warrant. So they have never seen my collection. They had no idea what I had at the time. Ms. JOLLY. Was the firearm returned in a short period of time, or has it been withheld for years? Mr. BEST. Mine was returned, it was a matter of months, when Cincinnati ruled on it and said it was taken illegally and it should be returned. Ms. JOLLY. Are you satisfied it was returned in the same condition it was acquired? Mr. BEST. It was a $30 gun. It wouldn't have made much difference on that one. Ms. JOLLY. This question is addressed to all three of you. Do you believe or not believe that you will be caused any additional actions on the part of local agents or the U.S. Attorney because of your testimony before the subcommittee today? Mr. BEST. That is a hard thing to say. I wouldn't have any idea. I do know that Agent Bauer is no longer in our area, if he is any longer in the service. The detective bureau in South Bend told me he has been fired. I don't know if it is true or not. Agent Holmes is still in our area, but be hasn't bothered me since this one time. newpage 295 Mr. WAMPLER. From the fact that the prosecutor in our area never thought anything of the case, I am not at all concerned about him. Most of the agents, with the exception of one, were not from our area. We have never had any problems in our gun shows in the Richmond area or to my knowledge any major difficulty with agents. In fact, the local agents I have met have been helpful. Ms. JOLLY. It is your experience that the agents actually don't bring the cases. That is your understanding. Mr. WAMPLER. I was told by these agents who came to my home that they didn't know anything about what had taken place before. they were there to seize the guns. There were four agents. One of them knew something about guns. The other three had complete disregard. They were on official business. They didn't know anything about guns. It was a little bit disappointing, frankly, they had so little regard for anything. The fourth agent, the one who appeared knowledgeable about guns, was even apologetic while they were cataloging them. He had called one of my .22 rifles a Winchester, by the name of a copy made in Brazil. When he started to read the serial number, he said, "Is this a Rossi?" he saw me flinch. He said, "Is that a Winchester?" I said, "Yes, it is." He said, "I am sorry. I have never seen one in this nice a shape." I feel somewhat uncomfortable about even going to a gun show, and particularly at this point in time. My family, not understanding the depth of the situation as I do, probably gives me greater concern in that they are more worried about it than I am. I believe I am under continuing surveillance and scrutiny. Mr. JEWELL. I am convinced I probably will be arrested again within the next the next year or even sooner because I haven't changed my attitude at all. I still go to gun shows. I am very careful about what I deal in anymore. But I deal in cartridges now. I switched to cartridges. But I am sure they are going to snatch me up somewhere along the line. So I am convinced I am going to get busted again. I have been offered hand grenades recently as well. Ms. JOLLY. Do you feel you are being targeted by the agents? Mr. JEWELL. Possibly just as an example, because, I keep a very high profile. I stick out like a sore thumb with my accent as well. People have complimented me and said, "Oh, give them hell, Dave. Keep it up. You are not going to let them scare you." And they are not scaring me because if worse comes to worst, I will go back to England. If I am driven out of this country, I will leave, which I don't want to do, by the way. I am very happy here. MS. JOLLY. Frequenting many gun shows in your own State and other surrounding areas, are you not familiar with most of the agents? Mr. JEWELL. I believe I am not. Ms. JOLLY. Do you feel they change agents frequently? Mr. JEWELL. I am sure they do; yes. In every case there has been an out-of-State agent. In nearly every case of a straw man sale one is always an out-of-State agent. With 1,200 agents, they can bring new agents in on you any time they want. Most of the local guys say in Denver, for instance, the minute they step into a gun show, the gun show is electrified. "The Feds are here." newpage 296 You will know the Feds are here. They are pointed out. Anybody who happens to be standing close can be suspect. Ms. JOLLY. It seems a little different than Mr. Vest's case. At least one of the agents was from the Indianapolis area in that case. Did you all have appraisals from outside sources on your weapons before they were acquired by the BATF, or did or did you appraisals afterward by someone say, from BATF handling this matter? In your view who was supposed to do the appraisal ? Mr. JEWELL. I have a ludicrous appraisal here, the BATF appraisal of my firearms. For instance, this firearm which I value at at least $7,000 now has 24-karat gold inlays on it. You could scrape the gold off and get more for it than they are alleging it is worth, period. They are appraising that gun at $150. It has way over that in 24-karat gold. Senator BAYH. I am really concerned about the necessity that you spend a lot of time and money trying to get weapons back that are kept after any question of impropriety has been dropped. Now, are they still claiming you have violated the law? Mr. JEWELL. Their statement was that effecting the return of these guns-their statement is that allowing the petition, that is the petition to return the firearms, would effect the return of the firearms to the individual whose illegal activities caused their forfeiture. Well I have never been convicted of anything. As my lawyer pointed out in a letter to them, it is merely an allegation of the agent that illegal activities took place. Senator BAYH. Gentlemen, I appreciate your taking the time to let us have your personal experience. I know those experiences have been painful. Again, I apologize for the necessity of wearing about three hats here this afternoon. So thank you very much, gentlemen. I appreciate your being here more than I can say. Mr. JEWELL. Thank you very much. sir. Senator BAYH. Our next witness is Mr. Michael Beard, Executive Director of the National Coalition to Ban Handguns. TESTIMONY OF MICHAEL BEARD, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, NATIONAL COALITION TO BAN HANDGUNS, ACCOMPANIED BY MARK TULLER, ARNOLD & PORTER Mr. BEARD. Mr. Chairman, we have submitted written testimony which includes eight attachments. I am going to summarize that testimony and request the full testimony be included in the record with the attachments. Senator BAYH. We would be glad to do that, sir. Mr. BEARD. My name is Michael Beard. I am executive director of the National Coalition to Ban Handguns. With me today is Mr. Mark Tuller of the law firm of Arnold & Porter. On behalf of the over 30 religious and lay groups making up the National Coalition to Ban Handguns, I want to thank you, Mr. Chairman, and the subcommittee for the opportunity to testify on the law enforcement activities of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms. The National Coalition to Ban Handguns is a unique coalition of national organizations which joined together in 1974 to combat the